Charge Like a Founder—Not an Employee

00:00.00
prestondlee
Welcome back to another episode of freelance to founder I’m Preston Lee with millo.co and joined as always by my friend Clay Moseley from gettripify.com hey Clay how you doing bud.

00:09.26
Clay Mosley
So hey good how you done.

00:12.59
prestondlee
Good man, really excited to have you here as always and joining us is our friend Joseph we just got to know a little bit before we hit record hey Joseph welcome to the show. Yeah absolutely Joseph you’re calling us from Mexico.

00:20.17
Joseph Chambers
They they try me thanks for having me.

00:28.83
Joseph Chambers
Yeah, yeah, I’m in her moilo. So um to give you a visual point. It’s like it’s about 3 out three and a half hours south of two center Arizona.

00:37.80
prestondlee
Okay, there you go good and how long you’ve been living there.

00:44.14
Joseph Chambers
I’ve been in Mexico for about 15 years living as the digital mode digital noma.

00:47.56
prestondlee
Love it? Yeah yeah, must be beautiful down there tell us a little bit about your business then Joseph what kind of work are you doing ah who are your clients just tell us maybe about your day to day.

01:01.20
Joseph Chambers
I sure um, so I’m a software developer I mostly do react and full stack development mobile development and I have a full time job. But I have a part time that. I’ve always kind of had something on the side and I work with like companies like Cnet or 1 ocean yachts and these are luxury brands and yeah, that’s kind of what I do so I have a slack room where.

01:31.69
prestondlee
Yeah, yeah.

01:35.49
Joseph Chambers
Kind of just communicate with them and I have ah I have a partner who’s a designer and we just we just work on what we can and.

01:43.39
prestondlee
So those are the clients that you work for as ah as a freelancer on the side or or ah with your day job. So.

01:46.80
Joseph Chambers
Yeah, freelancer work on the side for my day job I work for Sin Spark So we are a platform that allows you to create video landing pages.

01:59.58
prestondlee
Okay.

02:00.26
Clay Mosley
So well, that’s cool. So how does that relate to does It is it completely different like your job role in your day job versus oh cool, Cool cool.

02:05.62
Joseph Chambers
I Yeah, that’s my I’m I’m doing development there. Yeah.

02:05.96
prestondlee
Or are you doing development there. Okay, okay, Cool. So So what’s the like. Do you have a long-term plan for taking the business full time or do you want to? do you want to keep it as a side hustle which there’s nothing wrong with that tell us kind of where your mind is in in terms of you know side hustle versus full-time entrepreneur.

02:29.54
Joseph Chambers
And sure so in my past life I was doing conversion rate optimization and some Ppc and seo. But I’ve migrated to to development and I had to get experience somewhere right? I had to get experience.

02:36.57
prestondlee
That okay.

02:47.58
prestondlee
I Yeah for sure.

02:49.16
Joseph Chambers
Not only just going through through like Freecodecamp etc I had to get experience so that’s kind of like what I’ve been working on is getting the experience and building my clients and just establishing myself as like someone that can do the work. Um.

03:05.63
prestondlee
Yeah I love that you know I I love that you brought that up because some of us can be super awesome like Clay and do a bunch of stuff that doesn’t really relate to what we ultimately build a business in but but a lot of us need that experience of like going and.

03:07.49
Joseph Chambers
Yeah, so.

03:24.22
prestondlee
Maybe being mentored by people getting real-world experience and I think that really can pay off ah later on when you go to start your own business. You learn things about business and about the craft itself that would have taken years to learn on your own instead you learn them in a few months working with someone who’s been doing it for a long time or with a company who really understands the problems you’re solving. So. You know I I think sometimes we frown on like quote unquote getting a job like it’s this like it’s this bad or scary thing and really it can be a really great stepping stone in an entrepreneur’s journey is getting a job where you can be mentored where you can learn and then the goal is just or the idea is just to not not be captured by the golden handcuffs right? Not. Don’t start climbing the ladder so furiously that you then get stuck there in 30 years down the road you go wait wasn’t I going to start a business or something.

04:09.50
Joseph Chambers
I know I’ve been a living in Mexico for for a long time. So I’ve I’ve had to figure out how to make money on the internet and I mean I don’t live bad but I don’t live like.

04:17.58
prestondlee
Yeah.

04:25.34
Joseph Chambers
I Still live like an employee living with the Us You know that’s kind of like where um where I kind of need to improve and.

04:33.70
prestondlee
I I see cool Well tell us a little bit more about the work that you do for your clients you you mentioned a couple clients but but I’m curious like you know what? What are the actual services that you’re providing.

04:45.90
Joseph Chambers
And sure so I build the wordpress sites. Um I’ve I’ve originally I was working for another designer and a lot of my customers are agencies or designers and unfortunately last year um 1 of my clients passed away in an airplane accident and and I and I just was like reaching out to him like hey what’s going on and nothing he wasn’t replying and then I just googled his name.

05:07.54
prestondlee
Oh my goodness.

05:08.75
Clay Mosley
And.

05:21.18
Joseph Chambers
And I found out so I reached out to all of his clients and said hey I have your website. It’s okay, like I can transfer it to you and I just because they had no idea that I even existed. Um, so I kind of took over his customers. And really what I’ve provided is just wordpress development um theme development and Plugin Development. So That’s what I do and then I tried to fill the gap because tyrone was a designer is I brought on a friend and I said hey you know what. I Have these requests that are coming in and so let’s see what we can do and.

06:03.93
prestondlee
Got it? Okay, so you’re mostly you’re mostly designing building and maintaining wordpress sites for clients. Cool perfect. Well we know a thing or 2 about that. Don’t we clay think we’ll be able to help him out today.

06:10.68
Joseph Chambers
And yep.

06:17.16
Clay Mosley
I Oh for sure. Yeah I know look I know a little bit a little bit little bit.

06:23.84
prestondlee
Yeah, Clay and I have been dabbling in web design and wordpress for I don’t know too long probably but um, building businesses around it and so we know a thing or 2 we’re happy to share as much as we can today by the way if you’re listening ah to this coaching call with Joseph. We’re about to kick off. And really dive deep into some of the hurdles that he’s facing if you’re listening to this call and you’re thinking ah man that’d be fun to jump on a conversation with clay and Preston talk about my business maybe overcome some hurdles I’m facing. We’d love to help you all you have to do. It’s completely free. Just let us air your air the conversation on our podcast here. Um, you just visit freelancetufounder dot com and there’s at the bottom of the page There’s like a little questionnaire you fill out Joseph filled it out. Um, and then we book a time on our calendar and we chat about your business and we hopefully help you overcome some of the issues that you’re facing that are that are holding you back from maybe scaling your business and and growing it to a little bit bigger. Joseph ah filled out that questionnaire. Ah and on it as listeners of the show will know there’s there’s a couple questions asking about where you’re at now and where you want to be in six or twelve months and and Joseph we asked you on a scale of 1 to 10 one being a freelancer 10 being a founder where you currently rank yourself. And on that scale you said that you were currently at a 2 but then in 6 or twelve months you’d like to be at a 7 so much closer to a founder maybe running your business full time or or maybe at least just having more more people on your team more processes that kind of thing. Why don’t you paint a picture for us. Joseph.

07:53.94
prestondlee
What? ah in 6 or twelve months what does a 7 look like for you and your business. How do you kind of picture that.

08:00.28
Joseph Chambers
So I would like to be full time to and I would like Oriole to be full time and I would like to have like like at least 2 projects and on a calendar that are going to be ready that are still kind of in the pipeline. So there would be some onboarding for our customer where we take in some information and Oriole can work on some of the design directly with with the clients and then I would have a pipeline of work coming in that that would be.

08:37.85
prestondlee
Yeah I love that. Okay, so maybe the same size of team you got now but maybe putting in a few more hours getting some more consistent clients and a pipeline going so you can just kind of churn through the work cool I love it.

08:38.46
Joseph Chambers
That would be awesome.

08:50.10
Joseph Chambers
Um, yeah.

08:52.23
Clay Mosley
So love it.

08:55.70
prestondlee
What what kind of hurdles are you facing then how can we help you get to that point I think that’s very achievable from from where it sounds like you’re at now I don’t think it would be that hard to get there. Um so how can we help you six twelve months from now. How can we help you get to a 7

09:12.96
Joseph Chambers
so how so I guess where I’ve identified myself as a two and a seven because I work with really smart people and ah and and and we have all of these. Processes and sprints and having all that but that’s a lot of extra work. How how should I go about like what would be the first steps to building process I don’t even know exactly what do I need to do in order to get there.

09:45.28
Clay Mosley
So well. What? what are? what are the things that you’re struggling with just like right off the top of your head that you know that you struggle.

09:53.16
Joseph Chambers
Sure so just availability so like I have one customer who says hey can I have this done today and I’m like okay well oreo can you do this or can I do it or hey I can do it tomorrow but it’s kind of like.

10:03.35
Clay Mosley
Move It is.

10:11.65
Joseph Chambers
I Kind of feel like they’re I’m not kind of ah like a professional I’m just someone they can just say hey throw this to me and and and and do it when I tell you to do it I have one of those.

10:16.84
Clay Mosley
So yep. You get a lot of those just one of them. Okay, so is that is that one client is it ah is it a one of your bigger playing clients or is it or is it not.

10:39.85
Joseph Chambers
They So they do pay well but I want the charge to them more here. Um, but yeah I mean it’s consistent work I.

10:49.23
Clay Mosley
Yeah, okay, consistent work. Okay, so so um, in that aspect we’ve all had those right Preston like where where oh yeah, ever. It’s a never ending thing. Yeah like.

10:56.71
prestondlee
Yeah, 100% I still have them sometimes unfortunately.

11:06.18
Clay Mosley
It doesn’t matter how many things you put in place. You will always come across those clients. Just just fair warning um to me but to me it’s it’s all about I think it’s all about 2 things 1 is minimizing how many of those clients slip through the cracks. Um, right from the beginning and 2 how long you put up with it basically? um so like if it’s not if it’s not an on if if you don’t get a lot of clients that are that way I’ll just go ahead and mention this just because of the listeners. Um, it’s it’s a total pre-qualification type thing. Um, so if you ask the right questions. Um, you know, depending on who your target audience is or ideal client if you ask the right questions and you pre-qualify and make sure that they are going to be a good fit and make sure that they will treat you like ah like an expert and a professional because they are hiring you because they don’t know what you know versus an employee. Right? They they treat you like an employee pre-qualifying them on the front end will help ah filter those people out but since you only have one um, where and and that’s the issue is that you have one and the other issues they pay you consistently? Um, that. I don’t know like Preston might have a different response but I think I think just having a very direct transparent conversation with this particular client about how about expectations and how you work. Um and I think they I think a business owner a good one.

12:38.22
Clay Mosley
Will totally respect it if they don’t then honestly that you don’t need to be working with them anyway in my opinion. Um, and so I think just having a transparent conversation about that and whether or not you want to limit the the the things you do for them or. Ah, realistic timeline like I hate those clients I say hey I need this done now. Um so ah, talk to them about a realistic timeline things like that are just basically boundaries and how you work I think I think they will respect it I think you’ll be surprised um by the response that they. They will have but I don’t know Preston what do you think.

13:17.14
prestondlee
Yeah I think those are some good thoughts. Um a couple things that come to mind you know on the whole like ah treating having clients treat you like an agency as opposed to an employee we had a really great conversation with um Matt Esm who’s a freelance coach. Ah, sorry he actually coaches freelancers I’ll link to that episode and be sure to send it to you Joseph after we hang up here but um, a great conversation on how to get your clients to treat you more like an agency more like a professional more like a company instead of like a singular person or an employee so that that was really helpful. Um. The other thing that comes to mind is an article that we published on milo a while ago which again I’ll link up and I’ll send to you Joseph but the the essence of it was um why this particular freelancer actually welcomes high maintenance clients needy clients like this who are always sending you requests. Because what he did and I’m I’m trying to remember who it even was I’ll be sure to like I said link it up and you can investigate yourselves listeners. But um, what what he ended up doing was then building a business model around these high maintenance clients and so it was like yes I can do this today. But it costs you you know? $300 a month to send me requests that you need done within twenty four or 48 business hours and so he he had enough of these like high maintenance clients that it made sense for him to charge them a monthly fee. They were more than happy to.

14:33.64
Clay Mosley
And.

14:42.40
prestondlee
Pay it because then they could just send them. Whatever they needed whenever they needed it and then some were more high maintenance than others but he was able to then build a nice recurring revenue business. Um out of these high maintenance clients and having dabbled in that a bit myself. You know I started a wordpress maintenance company. Kind of an experiment ultimately sold it. But um, you know I was able to hire like some wordpress developers who just had their emails open throughout the day I paid them for every ticket that came through that they handled um and it was a great system. You could set up something like that for some nice recurring revenue. That’s pretty hands-offish for you like create a ticketing system so they don’t email you or call you instead they submit a ticket and then it goes to some subcontractors maybe that you find or even if it goes into your system then they at least just you know you need to set a timetable and. Kind of manage our expectations that way. But there’s there’s a potential there for a business model. So I think you know if you’re okay, with that kind of work that I need it right now kind of work then you then you can build a business around it if you would prefer not to do that I think there’s plenty of other fish in the sea. Ah that will you know, respect your time a little bit more. So don’t know those are my thoughts. What’s resonating Joseph with you are we are we saying anything. That’s that’s making sense over there.

15:56.42
Joseph Chambers
And yeah, it’s definitely making sense though I I guess the kind of customers that I would like the target would be 1 hey can you build this for me and like just more just like ah. Ah, like building out products as opposed to just managing wordpress sites I mean work work. Yeah.

16:21.49
Clay Mosley
I Like a one-off.

16:22.51
prestondlee
Okay, so you you don’t want to be you don’t want to be in the updates and maintenance business. You want to be in the like creation ideation ah problem solving business.

16:32.82
Joseph Chambers
Yep, yeah.

16:33.53
Clay Mosley
You car that makes sense so you like I was just gonna say so you’re more of like let me let me build this project and then once it’s done. You just kind of wipe your hands clean of it is that kind of the.

16:35.39
prestondlee
And and of your oh sorry you had.

16:48.85
Joseph Chambers
And no I mean obviously like when you’re building something when you’re building a product. It’s kind of like building a house you the customers. They don’t really know what they want at the end of the day until they see it. So Um. What I normally do is I just gather requirements and then I kind of draw it out like hey this is how this going to work. This is the type of user it is and and say okay well you’re gonna be able to this this and this and miss this and this and then say is this what you want to do? Yes, Okay, well, it’s going to cost you this much money.

17:20.99
prestondlee
And right.

17:22.53
Joseph Chambers
And then from there and then from there I’ll pass it on to a a designer and say hey can you um design this out and they’ll say yeah, that’s fine. But then as soon as we get to like the development stage where I’m building it and making everything look pretty.

17:40.23
Joseph Chambers
Then it’s like hey well we need this changes and we need that and um, you know I can finally do it. But when I give them the analogy like this is out of scope or this is something else I can do this for you then they then some of the pushback that I get is like is more so that.

17:59.54
Joseph Chambers
Well, that was obvious you know I thought that was clear or you know that’s industry standard like I’m supposed to become the expert in the industry. Um, which I can do but I kind of don’t know how to push back harder without. Trying to just be also a little flexible if it’s easy but I kind of I want to show value like hey I’m doing this extra for you So you know, but that but then it’s like when does that stop. So.

18:33.80
prestondlee
Yeah, that’s a really tough question because you don’t want to burn bridges or upset people like the last thing you want to be do is fighting with your clients. That’s just that’s no fun for anyone it it makes it so not worth the paycheck and so not worth building and growing your own thing like it’s just not fun to.

18:34.72
Clay Mosley
Earth. So.

18:51.72
prestondlee
Come into work every day and fight with clients I Guess Clay Do you have any thoughts on handling like those requests I know you’ve had some experiencing handling those little requests or changes or change orders or out of scope orders that come through what are your thoughts man.

19:07.34
Clay Mosley
Ah, you know this is a good I don’t know this is a good question I Just want to get some clarification about what what it is that you’re wanting So you you get these requirements right? like of what the client wants you go you get. You have the designer design it then you go and build it right? Then you launch a website correct is that okay and then and then after that then what just because I want to understand this then after that if a client needs any kind of updates or maintenance.

19:28.40
Joseph Chambers
You Yep, that’s exactly correct.

19:42.93
Clay Mosley
Is that where how do you respond to that are so okay.

19:45.40
Joseph Chambers
And so normally I just charge per hour. So I use religiously toggle and from there I just Mark what I’m doing and.

19:57.76
Clay Mosley
What What do you want to be doing.

20:02.13
Joseph Chambers
I Want to have bigger projects with longer um like bigger projects with with more budget where yeah.

20:16.72
Clay Mosley
Oh okay, so you don’t want to do you know? So if I’m here in the show. You don’t want to deal with the really minor things that have to be updated after a project’s done is that correct. Yeah yeah I I totally get that. Okay, so.

20:20.58
Joseph Chambers
Where.

20:26.68
Joseph Chambers
Yeah, don’t I don’t mind I don’t mind them. But yeah I would like to have bigger and better things.

20:36.42
Clay Mosley
Um, to me those are I don’t know I think in this industry This is one of those things in my opinion that that you just have to offer um and so like you have to offer ongoing maintenance ongoing care. Um, and you get it. You say you don’t mind doing it. Um. That’s fine you on charge hourly. Whatever um, here’s what I would suggest to because I also hate doing those updates. Um because they’re just like these little tiny annoying things you got to do every single day like I don’t like do them So I’m I’m the same as you here’s what I would suggest I would suggest hiring a. Ah, either a freelancer or hiring someone on your team who handles just these requests I have somebody on my team who does this and this is their only sold Job. That’s it and I don’t have to touch them. However, my clients are Happy. They’re being taken care Of. Um. So therefore they don’t leave me I get the money but I pay somebody to do these updates So I Personally don’t have to do them. That’s my recommendation there.

21:42.18
prestondlee
Can I make another suggestion I think that one’s fantastic and maybe a spin on that idea is if you don’t want to hire someone which I actually think that’s probably the best option you keep it all kind of in-house under your brand. They come back to you when they need a redesign in two or three years you stay top of mind. But if you don’t want to hire someone if you don’t want to manage those little tasks at all under your ecosystem if you only want to handle the the designer development of the main site and launch it out there and then move on to the next one I think there are ways to do that like. For example, you could partner with someone else who doesn’t want to do the big launches who likes the small maintenance and the small updates. Um, you could partner with them and either just refer them make sure it’s someone you trust and then refer your clients to them once you’re finished and hand it off and say we don’t do maintenance but I know these 3 people do and they do a great job.

22:19.44
Clay Mosley
And.

22:31.96
prestondlee
Or you could even collaborate with those people and say um, ah you know we’ll send you these clients and you you send us 15 % or something every month and you just collect kind of like a finders fee or you could also like collaborate in a way where they send large projects to you because as maintenance people they might have. You know clients coming and saying we need a full redesign and they don’t want to do that. But they hand that off to you so it’s like a symbiotic relationship mutually beneficial. So I think there are lots of options that way. There’s also like the opportunity to to find a company like wp curve or something who specializes in maintenance and and you could you could.

23:04.64
Clay Mosley
Yeah, let’s go.

23:10.29
prestondlee
You know, ah recommend your clients go to them for maintenance. There might even be some of those programs that have affiliate programs that would pay you on a monthly basis for as long as your client sticks with them as a customer. So I think there are ways. That you can get around like if you don’t want to hire someone necessarily for your team I Think that’s a great option if you don’t want to do that or you’re not quite ready for that and you still don’t want to handle the maintenance stuff I think you could partner with other people who actually enjoy that and are good at that and even potentially make a little bit of money by referring your clients to them So I don’t know.

23:40.59
Joseph Chambers
Yeah, for sure I would like to ask because I have I would say 4 for agencies that periodically send to me work and those are the best type of customers and I would say.

23:40.81
prestondlee
Some opportunities there.

23:59.14
Joseph Chambers
2 of them actually got them from the the Facebook group that you guys have thank you so much. Ah, yeah, so how do I find those clients and then how do I charge them more because when I say hey I charge.

24:03.41
prestondlee
Oh Wow! great.

24:05.10
Clay Mosley
So nice.

24:17.65
Joseph Chambers
You know $40 an hour. They’re like that’s perfect. You know, but how do I go from the hourly rate of like $40 an hour to something that’s a lot better for us. Um, because I would be able to to move quicker right? and on full time. But. How do I approach normally what I’ve done by approaching agencies I just call them um say hey I’m a developer. What’s going on I’m I’m in Tucson can we meet I mean how do you guys work? Do you guys have someone in-house outhouse like how is this working.

24:55.35
prestondlee
Um, yeah.

24:57.16
Joseph Chambers
And I would just pick up the phone and call. Um I don’t mind that but how can I position myself as an like a team extension like hey you know Joseph works with us. He has a company and he’s going to handle all of the development work. But. And all of the design work if they if they if they needed to how could I position myself as like someone that they can go to without being cheap.

25:24.52
prestondlee
Yeah, yeah for sure. Okay, so there’s a lot to unpack here. Let me see if I can just break it down and make sure I’m hearing what you’re hearing. So first of all, if people want to check out the Facebook group that Joseph is talking about you can visit milo.co/mastermindmillo.co/mastermind. It’s a free Facebook group. There’s like almost 10000 of us I think in there constantly like exchanging jobs and just um, talking about the issues we’re facing and problem solving is the great group. Um, so what? I’m hearing Joseph is like your question is I charge employee rates. Right? But ah so how can I charge more and still be a part of the team and I think ah for me before we dive in like part part of the issue is you’re wanting to be an in an employee situation. You want to be treated almost like an employee ah but you don’t want the employee pay.

26:15.28
Joseph Chambers
I No no I don’t I don’t want to be an employee I just want them to it seems to me that a lot of yeah I just want to get paid more. Yeah at the end of day I Just want to get paid more and and I want to get paid more and.

26:19.14
prestondlee
No.

26:23.55
Clay Mosley
He wants get paid more.

26:26.79
prestondlee
Yeah, well don’t we all.

26:33.61
Joseph Chambers
I Still want to kind of be like a partner that they would go to yeah and.

26:38.11
prestondlee
Yeah, yeah, okay, cool, cool. So I think I think referring back to that episode that I mentioned before and again we’ll link that up in the show notes I’m sure Clay has some thoughts on this I have some more ideas before we do that we’re going to take a quick break for a short message from our sponsors and then we’ll be back to talk about. Um. Yeah, how to raise your prices how to work with agencies in charge more and I think pricing in general that’ll be a good conversation to have for the remainder of the episode is just talking about how to get your pricing in the right place so we’ll be right back in just a couple minutes. Hello and welcome back to freelance to founder I’m on the air today with my friend Clay Moseley from git tripify I’m Preston Lee from millo.co and on the air with us today as our guest for his coaching call is Joseph who’s calling us from Mexico talking about his. WordPress development company and the question posed right before the break was how do I charge more working with agencies. How do I get my prices up and get paid more clayve. You had any thoughts while we’ve had a short break right.

27:39.30
Clay Mosley
I yeah I I think there’s I think there’s ah 1 main way to do this? Um I I’m going to disclose this by saying I have never like me as a web developer I’ve never worked with other agencies. So. I’m just saying this from and from an actual agency perspective not as a freelancer perspective. This is something I would hire out for and pay more money for so just give it a little bit of context there. Um I think what you need to do is I think you need to. Ah. Hone down your skill set. That’s very specialized. Um, where there’s not a ton of people that know how to do what you do and so what I mean by that is there’s a ton of wordpress developers out there like a lot of them. So. With agencies. That’s really easy for them to hire in-house hire a full-time salaried employee. Um, it’s also easy for them to go to like upwork or whatever to find a wordpress developer. However, what’s not as um, what’s not as ah. Easy is finding someone who let’s say specializes in membership development right? Somebody wanted to build out an online membership platform on wordpress like there’s not in my opinion like that’s that’s ah, that’s a so much much smaller group.

29:11.75
Clay Mosley
And so or if if ah maybe you specialize in building out completely like complete ecommerce solutions or something like yeah, there’s other people that do that but that group is so much smaller than just wordpress developers. So I think if you can figure out how to. Um, provide some sort of specialized skill that agencies wouldn’t typically just hire a full time person I think at that point you’re not only are you gonna find more business but you are going to 100 % be able to charge whatever you want because. There wouldn’t be a whole lot of people out there know how to do it.

29:51.86
Joseph Chambers
It’s interesting. So the way that I’ve kind of positioned myself is I don’t build things with um, you know these editors that people use they use these bloated themes I kind of yeah.

30:04.45
prestondlee
You Divvy or elementor or something like that. Yeah.

30:05.36
Clay Mosley
Um, sure.

30:08.62
Joseph Chambers
Those are crazy I use roots so that kind of gives you a modern development environment and I just build everything with advanced custom fields and very Lee I don’t have a lot of plugins and I just use the right tools for the job and I don’t always reach for something heavy when it’s. Simple to do um so I try to just perform just like it’s gonna be something that is going to be fast and I would say I’m a fast developer so I tried to say I’m faster than other people. But i.

30:29.53
Clay Mosley
Um, ah.

30:45.69
Clay Mosley
I Think that actually hurts you my opinion.

30:47.83
Joseph Chambers
I I think I think that was where I was going to go I I don’t know how to I don’t know what to say really like how can I leverage myself like hey I’m not just your you know $20 and hour wordpress developer.

30:55.41
Clay Mosley
So.

31:02.64
Clay Mosley
Um, yeah yeah I I I don’t know Preston might have some different opinions on this but the whole the whole like fast. Um I think that with some people might hurt you. It may not with others because there’s a lot of people.

31:04.63
Joseph Chambers
I Build production ready sites that can receive a lot of traffic. So.

31:22.18
Clay Mosley
I I think the people that want it want things done super quick like today I mean think about that from your client. So go back to the beginning of this episode of us talking about your client who wants things done now think about how you feel about that person and so like. I don’t know like my mindset is okay that client’s a paying the ass. Um, and so if if you’re if the agencies want to hire you because you’re fast now I want I want you to take this mindset again. How do you think that age like how do you think you are going to feel about your relationship with that agency then they’re automatically going to think you can get this done now and also the issue with that too is if you can get things done fast. There is a kind of. Of fair assumption that you are not busy and if you are not busy. That means you do not have very many clients and therefore you are cheap and so and can yep.

32:17.70
prestondlee
Yes I think that that gets to the heart of the problem. It’s basic economics right? If if you’re in demand you can charge more if you’re not in demand you can’t and so everything that Clay has said so far. It’s like.

32:30.12
Clay Mosley
Ah.

32:33.73
prestondlee
Ah, if you have a specialty that not that many other developers relatively have then you are in a higher demand and you can charge higher prices if you have a more full schedule because you have more clients and you can’t do it as quickly than you appear to be even if you’re not. In more in more demand and therefore you can charge higher prices like it’s all about it’s all about scarcity and demand as a almost as a marketing tactic. Ah as as step one I think in in raising your prices sorry interrupt keep going.

32:51.40
Clay Mosley
Her.

33:01.56
Clay Mosley
For sure. Oh no, no, it’s it’s good like I even if I could like if somebody were to approach me. Um and let’s just say my my plate is not full like I could completely get a website done within like a week right that’s a super short timeline for me. Um I would say no, it’s going to be sixty days like and that’s just what I tell everybody and so whenever whenever people say sixty days. Oh man like you must be good because that means your project um, queue must be full. And therefore like if if the people are willing to wait. They’re willing to pay so I want you to think about that phrase if they’re willing to wait. They are willing to pay so that’s my take on that I if I were you going forward from this point going forward.

33:41.66
Joseph Chambers
He.

33:54.68
Clay Mosley
That would not be a selling point for me I would I would quit saying hey you’re fast like don’t do that? Um, yeah I I think that hurts you more than it helps you.

33:59.12
Joseph Chambers
So okay I.

34:02.83
prestondlee
Yeah especially in the wordpress space like for me if I hear a wordpress developer say oh I can do that really fast that I’m like oh great, you’re going to you know, Bog down my site with plugins or sloppy code or something like I want someone who’s going to take their time and do it right? and do it well. Ah, luxury developer as opposed to like a fast-food developer.

34:22.88
Joseph Chambers
It is interesting.

34:27.30
Clay Mosley
I Want to touch on the point too about the fact that you say you use clean code. You don’t use Plugins. You don’t use visual builders and things like that those are like that Those are all great. Those are all benefits. Um I think you just need to word it a different way. I Think what you need to do is this is this is just good old fashioned sales and copywriting um instead of saying hey I write clean code. Um I don’t use a ton of plugins blah Blah Blah Blah What I would say is ah I would say I build websites that are. Lightning fast right? page page speed fast. Yeah.

35:01.00
prestondlee
You yeah and you you got there I noticed I noticed that too like you got there eventually Joseph but I but you led with I do this I do that instead lead with when you hire me, you get a super fast website. My website’s rank.

35:15.48
Clay Mosley
No.

35:18.60
prestondlee
90 or higher in Google Page speed or you know like some real concrete stuff. Ah or my my websites rank higher in Google because they’re fasting Google cares about speed right now like focus on what the client wants out of the website other than clean code, clean code is like the how that.

35:31.30
Clay Mosley
Ah, her.

35:37.37
Clay Mosley
Yeah, yeah, you need to talk about the why right? you need talk about the why because like you can talk about kling code all day long with these agencies and I would even argue some of these agencies don’t even freaking know what? what? you’re even talk about if you talk about Jargon Um, but.

35:37.58
prestondlee
Of where you of getting to where the client wants to be so.

35:40.33
Joseph Chambers
And.

35:50.13
prestondlee
Oh yeah.

35:55.24
Clay Mosley
The way you need to talk to these agencies is the same way you you need to talk about to the end user the end client. They don’t know anything about code. They don’t know what react is they don’t know like they don’t know where any of that stuff is and so you you need to talk but they know what a fast website is right. So that I would change my wording there I would one one change your wording on that ah to um, stop telling people that you can build things quickly.

36:21.66
Joseph Chambers
You? Okay I.

36:23.20
prestondlee
Yeah, so so I think I think for me, it’s like the first step is generate that demand in in the various ways we’ve talked about we don’t need to be a dead horse there but like make yourself seem in demand that’ll make it a lot easier to raise your prices and then ah. You can raise your prices also by explaining the value that you bring to your client as opposed to the the tactics that you use or the the you know, clean code like the day-to-day things that you do? What’s the value then you can switch to value-based pricing what your. Clients are actually paying for now is ranking page 1 of Google or you know over 90 page speed in Google insights or or they’re paying for that’s what they’re paying for and they’re willing to pay double you know for. Or triple or quadruple for a page that ranks number 1 on Google than they are to just pay for a page that looks nice or has clean code. You know what I’m saying and so you have to really dial in on like what do the clients want.

37:19.27
Joseph Chambers
Will you.

37:24.19
prestondlee
And then how can I talk about my services that way so that I can charge more money those 2 things alone I think would allow you to go from a $40 an hour rate to I mean hundreds of dollars an hour in in some depending on you know, depending on the industry. The location, the client but. You could at least go to $100 an hour 15200 to 50 is not unheard of in your space.

37:47.85
Joseph Chambers
That Okay, so it’s really just on how I sell myself. Um and and and and and and that’s and that’s okay I can definitely change that for sure So I’m just thinking about.

37:53.60
Clay Mosley
Yeah, yeah, what? but.

38:05.80
Joseph Chambers
What that would yeah and then when I tell people I’m in Okay, go ahead. Sorry no, please go ahead. Please.

38:13.64
prestondlee
No go ahead Joseph well I just I have to admit, um I I still like feel like there’s a bit of a discrepancy between tell tell me tell me more about the relationship between you and an agency like what’s the ideal scenario and what does the current scenario look like because. To me, it still feels like it’s going to be hard if you’re if you’re even if even if you’re you know a separate company or they treat you as a separate company. It still feels like if they’re hiring you out. They want to hire you for as little as possible because that increases their profit margins right? because. They pay you $45 an hour and they turn around and charge their client one hundred and fifty dollars an hour then that looks really great on their books and so I guess like I’m I’m seeing a bit of a discrepancy here between the kind of client that you want and then the kind of prices that you want to charge so walk me through what an ideal. Agency scenario maybe looks like.

39:09.12
Joseph Chambers
Um, I That’s what I was afraid of I was afraid that how can I because I like that agencies they find elites and they have the they have their customers and they have they they can bring everything to me. Um.

39:18.12
prestondlee
Yeah, for sure.

39:21.40
Clay Mosley
So yeah.

39:27.33
Joseph Chambers
And 2 of those agencies I just work directly with the the developer that’s on their team like with the co-founder. Whatever and he also has a designer and they seem to have a really good stream of customers. Um, and.

39:46.97
Joseph Chambers
That’s why I was like okay well I need to partner with a designer and I need to be able to do what he does like I need to be able to do translate design to code good I got really good at that. So I I guess the reason why I want to go after the designers because I’m able to identify that 8 agencies they seem to have more leads at least the ones that I work with so that’s kind of why I wanted to focus on targeting agencies because I don’t have to sell myself to a customer that.

40:18.75
prestondlee
Yeah, yeah, no I Totally get the appeal.

40:20.00
Clay Mosley
You you still you still have to set. Yeah.

40:23.32
Joseph Chambers
Yeah, just not to sell myself to a customer but I don’t have to sell myself to to like pick up a phone and call call like the local market or whatever.

40:30.24
prestondlee
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

40:33.73
Clay Mosley
Yeah, totally totally makes sense for sure. Um, ah so so going back to Preston’s question what’s that dynamic look like like how how do you? What is the.

40:48.80
Joseph Chambers
And sure sure so basically um, hey we have this project are you available to take it. Yeah sure I can take it I can’t say hey two months from now because then it’s like okay well we’re gonna find someone else. So I guess it’s.

40:50.40
Clay Mosley
Yeah, just go over that. So.

41:06.53
Joseph Chambers
Also probably how I position myself with with them initially. So my how would I establish that with new agencies that I reach out to and.

41:07.95
Clay Mosley
Yeah, yeah.

41:18.51
Clay Mosley
I I think this I think this goes back to what I was saying is you can either do 1 or of 2 things or both if you can either having a specialized skill right? that that not very many people know how to do on that might take some time if you don’t currently have that. Um, but 2 again this goes just I mean we’re kind of beating the dead horse. But um, if you position yourself and you make yourself known. Ah, the fact that like okay your websites are are have really really fast page speed. Um, then. What? what’s going to happen this doesn’t happen overnight. Um, but what’s going to happen is that as you start talking to these agencies I think they’re going to realize that okay, your websites are actually lightning fast. Um. So therefore we are going to keep using you and and the what their mind their mindset is going to be ah hey can you do this and then it it doesn’t matter if you say thirty days or whatever. I think that I think you’re going to. They’re going to get to the point where they only want to use you and they’re not even going to consider anybody else if you’re that good at it right? Um, but you got to you got to use you do have to use the right words I mean it’s like it’s all it’s.

42:48.20
Clay Mosley
Again, It’s easy for an agency to go find a freelancer who can do something but it’s all about positioning. It’s all about using the ah positioning your service and and using the right words on on what makes your what makes you stand out versus other people. And so I don’t know person might have something different here to say I know I feel like I’m repeating the same thing though.

43:13.84
Joseph Chambers
Ah sorry I.

43:16.37
prestondlee
No I think it’s the right? It’s the right way to be thinking. That’s why we keep repeating it because it makes sense. Um I think I’m gonna if I can I think you know unfortunately we’re running a bit short on time here I’m gonna I’m going to end ah with.

43:31.40
prestondlee
Maybe some really good news and then maybe some really tough truth if that’s okay Joseph so the good news is I think you should try all the things we’ve talked about today. We also might be overcomplicating it right? So you might be able to just go to your client and say.

43:34.69
Joseph Chambers
Please.

43:50.95
prestondlee
Ah, just so you know we’re going from $40 an hour to $65 an hour or whatever like you can just say you know we’re raising our rates this year we’d love to keep you as a client and if they push back then maybe negotiate but you’ll still come out.

43:57.14
Clay Mosley
And.

44:08.93
prestondlee
You know higher in your hourly rate than you’re currently or at and then you can do that every year or 2 and that’s just kind of how business works and people expect it and if you have pushback like if you have a huge client that brings you you know 6 figures a year and they push back real hard then just say you know. I’d I’d love to grandfather you at the rate for one more year and then we’ll have to talk about it or something like there are ways around it. Um, the worst they can say is like we can’t afford it and then you’ll say well let’s talk about it. Let’s figure out something we can do maybe we can reduce the scope. Maybe we can whatever. So um I think we may be overcomplicating it just a little bit in some instances this is particularly true of new clients. So as you get new clients keep experimenting with the rate you know I had so I recorded ah a year-long podcast with a friend of mine Andy. And we talked all about his freelancing journey from quitting his job to starting freelancing to growing a business. It was the whole first year of it and he raised his rates like every new client he got he raised I think he doubled his rates or something. Because he heard this thing about double your rates until you can’t anymore and he just kept doubling doubling doubling and it took like 6 times of doubling his rates before he got enough pushback that he stopped so like every time you get a new client raise your rates and when you start to get pushback.

45:18.29
Clay Mosley
Yeah I.

45:20.89
prestondlee
Back down a little bit and that’s your sweet spot right? before There’s a lot of pushback That’s the sweet spot for your rates.

45:26.56
Clay Mosley
You Yup yep it it needs to be ah if a bunch of people are signing up at no problem like with note with no problem of you selling it that you’re too low I hear hear What one last thing I know we got to we kind of.

45:32.12
prestondlee
You? Yep Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:33.61
Joseph Chambers
You Yeah cool.

45:44.15
Clay Mosley
Kind of and close things off on on your on your if you want to raise your rates on your current clients I think you just need to and there’s we can do a whole episode on this but I just want to mention this you need to explain it in a way that makes it sound like they’re getting something better.

46:01.81
Joseph Chambers
Okay, okay I.

46:03.90
Clay Mosley
If that make that’s okay, don’t just say this is just my opinion. Don’t just say hey we’re raising our rates like yeah, no.

46:09.14
prestondlee
Yeah, and you can’t say like we have to cover more overhead or whatever that won’t work either. It’s like in order to give you a better experience here’s what we’ve done to make your service better and in in you know coordination with that improvement where we’ll be raising our rates starting on such and such a date.

46:27.17
Joseph Chambers
So okay I.

46:28.36
prestondlee
Um, yeah, people have to see why but that’s for existing clients new clients. Don’t have to know that the last client got a better deal than they are ah you just you just keep raising that one until people push back and here’s the hard truth I wanted to end with and that is this? ah.

46:29.42
Clay Mosley
Yep.

46:34.24
Clay Mosley
Right? yeah.

46:35.37
Joseph Chambers
Okay I.

46:44.50
prestondlee
I Think partnering with an agency is ah is a brilliant idea I know lots of people who it works very very well for them and I think you should continue to pursue that if that’s the line you want to pursue. However, some of the things that you were saying like were red flags for me. For example, you said like well they get all the leads and I really like not having to find the leads and yes, that’s true. Those are the same reasons that people get a job and stay in a job and work for someone else though too and so you have to be careful in saying like well it’s easier this way. But I Also want to charge the premium prices.

47:09.22
Clay Mosley
That’s so true right.

47:16.40
prestondlee
Because sometimes the reason you can charge the premium price is because you’ve got the whole thing in your ecosystem and sometimes when you’re actually part of someone else’s bigger ecosystem. Then you have to just be okay with taking the lower rates. Um, you know it’s hard to charge agency rates when you’re a ah contracted team member of someone else’s Team. And so I think as long as you keep it in perspective like you’ll be fine, but it’s important to remember that. That’s the difference between being an employee or being ah a contractor versus being like a founder running a full business a full company with with employees like.

47:41.20
Clay Mosley
So the.

47:48.80
Clay Mosley
Yep.

47:52.20
prestondlee
It’s fine to be a freelancer. There’s nothing wrong with that. We love freelancers. But um Freelancers can charge less than founders can charge. You know what I mean so it’s important to keep that keep that in mind.

47:58.26
Joseph Chambers
Sure.

47:58.98
Clay Mosley
Yeah I’ll add to that from my experience. The people that are able to charge really high premium are the ones that know how to sell straight up like and it doesn’t have to be you like.

48:10.82
prestondlee
Yeah, yeah.

48:11.45
Joseph Chambers
And.

48:16.72
Clay Mosley
If it’s somebody else on your team or if you want to bring on a partner and knows how to do that. That’s fine and you do the work but like if you just on top of what Preston just said if you just straight up want to do the work and you don’t want any. You don’t want anything to do with getting leads or or business. Um, okay, that’s fine, just find somebody else to do it. Um, who’s on your team. But if you if you’re if otherwise if you’re not It’s really hard. It is really hard to charge a premium if you just if you don’t know how to do that side of the business. That’s that’s a very that’s a thing that a lot of people when they go into business for themselves that they don’t understand is that.

48:53.70
prestondlee
Yeah.

48:55.80
Clay Mosley
Yeah, gotta sell you have to otherwise you have no, you have no business. So.

49:01.60
Joseph Chambers
So thank you so much for um, your time today I just would like to ask 1 more question. How do I how do I how do I get over location so when they hear that I’m in Mexico then it’s like then i.

49:06.68
prestondlee
Please do.

49:19.69
Joseph Chambers
Do get a little bit of pushback. How do I put? How should I position location. Oh wow. So one time I have this one customer in Canada and he really wanted to work with me.

49:20.50
prestondlee
So okay, what? what’s the pushback like what? what do they say? okay.

49:23.58
Clay Mosley
Yeah, what’s pushback.

49:37.70
Joseph Chambers
And then you’re like oh no, they have different laws in Mexico. So if you go and you take our code or you do something you know like it’s going to be harder to ah to to to protect themselves against anything that happened right? So they just feel like maybe Mexico is um, like. Is be harder to pursue any sort of legal responsibilities or legal things. That’s like 1 and then like another thing is just I don’t know they just like I’ve had someone hang up the phone when I told them im in Mexico so I don’t know it’s kind of weird.

49:59.26
prestondlee
Okay.

50:12.99
prestondlee
Okay, go for clay.

50:13.23
Clay Mosley
I think this is an easy thing in my opinion I think I think I think a lot of it is in your head. Um I think it’s just a mental barrier to the fact that you’re in Mexico um, the other okay and even if it’s not.

50:15.38
Joseph Chambers
I Yeah I.

50:32.94
Clay Mosley
Ah, here’s here’s how you get around it. You just say you’re you’re you’re doing so well that you’re living in Mexico like you know I mean a lot of people a lot of people will will say oh you’re a Mexico like great like I have a friend who who’s in Mexico right now he’s living there.

50:39.75
Joseph Chambers
I mean.

50:50.24
Clay Mosley
And he’s doing extremely well and the way he the way he ah portrays it is that he’s doing really well and so that means he can go live wherever he wants and so that’s kind of the way I would I would ah yeah I I.

50:59.74
Joseph Chambers
Okay, okay.

51:01.98
prestondlee
Yeah, yeah, ah for me. So here’s a couple more and then we got to wrap it up unfortunately, but um, for me, it’s like first of all, do you have to bring it up. You know if people ask sometimes they’re asking about the time zone you could say like I’m in mountain time.

51:13.66
Clay Mosley
Yep.

51:17.99
prestondlee
I’m in central time or wherever it falls. Ah, you know because it it sounds like the us if it’s ah if the legal issue comes up all the time. Ah, you know you could form an llc in the United States and say like you know we’re a United States company we function under United States law etc etc like I do feel like it is more of a ah ah mental barrier. Maybe for you ah than than really an issue I hate to dismiss it that way because clearly you’ve experienced it enough times that it feels like an issue. Um, but I think there are ways yeah around it. Um, if if they hang up. As soon as you say you live in Mexico like they weren’t they weren’t the right kind of client for you anyway. So um, but you know you could also say I’m currently working in Mexico. So like that that kind of makes it feel like it’s less or or we work out of Mexico right now like you can kind of.

52:00.60
Joseph Chambers
Yeah.

52:14.41
prestondlee
Frame it so that it doesn’t feel like maybe what some of their concerns are which is like you’re a Mexico -based company. Ah, there’s no like legal ties to the country. They’re currently in or whatever. But honestly like yeah that that feels so strange to me because. You know people, hire freelancers and agencies from all over the world now. So I don’t know does any of that help.

52:35.45
Joseph Chambers
I yeah no I really have a lot of things to think about and I’m going to definitely improve and hopefully we can follow up and and and and and next year and and I can be closer to a 7 So.

52:52.16
prestondlee
Well great man. Thank you so much for taking time to chat with us today. This has been a blast. Some new ideas have been uncovered at least for me. So I think it’s been a lot of fun. Thanks for taking time with us today Joseph all right man see ya.

52:54.22
Clay Mosley
I go.

53:02.77
Clay Mosley
So thanks for coming on.

53:02.90
Joseph Chambers
Thank you right? have a good bye.