How to Keep Clients Engaged

00:00.00
Preston
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Freelance to Founder. My name is Preston Lee with Millo.co and joining me on the air as always is my good friend Clay Moseley from getdripify.com hey Clay

00:10.62
Clay
Hey Preston I’m ready to go man. It’s been in like a what three week hiatus for me. Yeah.

00:17.23
Preston
It’s been a while. Yeah, our listeners won’t know we’ve ah because you know we we batch record and whatever and sometimes we repeat episodes. But yeah I’ve missed you Personally, it’s been a while since they’ve chatted.

00:24.23
Clay
Yeah, we usually we usually record every week but I yeah been on a three week travel window. So but I’m back oh god I went on 4 different trips all business related except for the very last one.

00:31.72
Preston
Yeah, man, give us a quick recap where where have you been? What were you up to.

00:44.14
Clay
Which was literally a day out of an eighteen day ah time window. But the last one we ended it at the beach down in South Texas subtle yeah, it was good I mean it was it was all work trips though.

00:51.47
Preston
Very nice. Did your family get to go with you at all though or were you kind of solo the whole time. Cool.

01:02.19
Clay
Ah, no solo for the first half and then family went went the second half I went and spoke at a pretty big event. It is’s actually quite nice because thatn’t spoken in a while. But yeah, it was good.

01:13.57
Preston
Yeah, good man. Um, are they going to put the video online can I watch the speech oh bugger, you got to be like Gary Vee and just take your own people. You know to record your speeches.

01:19.88
Clay
No man they need record it I know was bombed out I was bumped out but right you know it’s ah that’s kind of what probably what I need to do.

01:33.59
Preston
Well good man I’m glad it went. Well glad you’re home safe and sound um joining us also on the air is our new friend wayne hey Wayne how you doing good calling from Atlanta today and we’re so grateful I was saying before we hit record. We’re just so grateful for.

01:40.30
Wayne
I am well.

01:48.84
Preston
You Wayne and and people like Wayne who are willing to come on the show without you guys. We couldn’t do the show format? Um, so if you’re familiar with the show you enjoy listening to it you like ah having guests come on. We need you to to join us so you can visit freelance to founder.com and just scroll to the bottom of the page fill out a little questionnaire there and we’d love to have you on the air talk about your business. Wayne why don’t you introduce yourself to us to the listeners tell us about your business what you’re working on. Maybe how long you’ve been in business tell us about your clients just any information you kind of want to give us to get ah, ah you know an idea of what your business looks like. So.

02:18.92
Wayne
Sure my name is Wayne Peletteer and I run resonant pixel company. It’s at residentpixel.co I know terrible name weird domain but it it seems to work. ah ah I’ve been

02:31.65
Preston
So we’ve heard worse I’d say.

02:34.68
Clay
And.

02:36.95
Wayne
Designer art director creative director for 25 years or so in making websites and creating brands and working at marketing and ad agencies mostly here in Atlanta and you know after a couple of decades of that i. I wanted to branch out on my own because I think like a lot of listeners I was a freelancer for years doing non-competitive work like if I’m at a media Seo agency. They’re not interested in doing branding or websites so it was always an opportunity for me to continue to sharpen my scales broaden the interest. You know the level of interest in the different you know varieties of things I could be working on and then when it was time to kind of take it pro go full time I did that three years ago like right before the pandemic like a month before lockdown and ah.

03:29.11
Preston
Ah.

03:32.98
Wayne
So that’s been an interesting journey but you know right out of the gate. The business scaled relatively quickly to a place where it was obvious that it was working I think within two to three months I was earning a living and. Had half dozen clients on top of older freelance clients that I had been helping for years that were more spotty like sporadic work and then it kind of showed me that it was possible. So I kept scaling as a generalist doing all kinds of different types of projects.

04:08.50
Preston
Oh.

04:09.88
Wayne
Take all comers say yes, find out what happens and then I started to niche down and and chip away at things that I either couldn’t create processes for couldn’t hire well for and then kind of lean into the things that I enjoy the most. So. Ah, that’s where I landed on a productized service for website design and development. Um, and now I focus primarily on helping small businesses leverage the Squarespace platform in order to go from having like a brochureware informational website to something that can be. Transactional and really productive for their business.

04:50.89
Preston
Um, interesting, very cool. It sounds like um quite the evolution and honestly Congrats to you for being able to start a business and keep it going. You know before the pandemic and through the pandemic. Um I think ah not a lot of people.

05:00.73
Clay
So now.

05:06.53
Preston
Were able to do that I I mean know a lot of people who tried and it just the timing was just terrible. So good for you? yeah.

05:09.40
Clay
I Feel like it was one I feel like I was one one way or the other you either thrived or you I say let me read me rephrase. Not maybe not thrive but you either grew or you tanked like I know very few people who just kind of hovered in the middle.

05:21.36
Preston
Yeah, yeah, that’s a good point. Yeah, particularly those who started right before like you’re saying you started like was it just a few months before really the pandemic set in here in the us. That’s it’s impressive. So and and I love that. Ah I love that within a few months you had your you know a nice steady income and and so now I love ah you know I I don’t know how long you’ve been listening your worship show I don’t know how much ah, we can take credit for some of the things you’ve done but this is you’ve done exactly what we would recommend which is like. You started out you sort of took all the jobs you could um, just to get your feet under. You get some revenue in the door and then you started to really get smart about like niching down and um and eventually productized a service which if you’re not familiar with that listeners. Basically well why don’t you tell us when what? what’s like the product. As a service service as a product that you offer people what what do your clients actually buy from you.

06:15.11
Wayne
Yeah, happy to share first rewind rapidly here to say take as much credit as you want you deserve a ton I’ve learned a ton listening to your show. So go ahead and pay yourselves on the pack. Maybe listen. Maybe this would be the two ah one I don’t know maybe my problems are.

06:26.47
Preston
Well thank you so much for listening we we love it. We love it.

06:29.30
Clay
Um, a father.

06:34.41
Preston
Ah, you know, whatever, but you I mean you did the work you deserve the credit but god.

06:34.48
Wayne
Going to be different so but I would say um, that’s awesome. So the productization of a service you know I had several out of the gate and what I found was that.

06:34.92
Clay
Um, ah yes.

06:48.60
Wayne
Hiring and managing processes whether it’s the creation of sops or even leveraging sops was just too much to do as the only full-time employee across different platforms I was doing a bunch of shopify a ton of squarespace a few wordpress sites here and there. And managing the proposal process and managing the hiring and the review of all the work itself was a full-time job. Let alone actually man doing the work and or the hiring and the you know running the business. So.

07:21.92
Preston
Ah, ah.

07:27.46
Wayne
That’s when I kind of chipped away and I thought well what do I What do I enjoy doing the most like which platforms do I enjoy the most right and I absolutely despise most of the wordpress sites that I’ve ever created and and touching that software is just gross. So I so adopt it I was that’s it I’m.

07:41.37
Clay
The was specific.

07:46.75
Wayne
Still do a few here and there for really old customers that have been around for fifteen or so years and they need something done. That’s fine. But when I get invited to some other wordpress site. That’s not mine. It’s like wearing somebody else’s underwear even if they’re clean, you’re like gross.

07:52.55
Preston
Mia.

08:02.88
Wayne
So So I decided ah to create a package for small to midsized businesses because I enjoy those conversations the most and I enjoy kind of interacting with those people the most and ah, that’s kind of how I chose that and and I enjoy the platform I think it it does a good job of doing. The basics well and reliably so so I decided that I didn’t want to be nickel and diming I didn’t want to do Proposals Anymore. Can I Just like put like screw that whole mess I would I would say our.

08:26.22
Preston
Ah.

08:31.56
Preston
Yes.

08:40.43
Wayne
Finding a price was the hardest thing so I had talked to a few clients and I think I actually got that from you guys that advice from you guys. So I talked to a few customers to land on a ballpark and I started from there and then just kind of made everything included.

08:56.70
Preston
Yeah.

08:57.81
Wayne
The the number 1 question I get is like hey what about your contract and I’m like what do I need a contract for who bounces around from web designer to web designer all the time like hiring somebody is a huge undertaking plus the financial.

09:10.50
Clay
So the painer the ask clients do That’s who yeah, right.

09:13.95
Preston
Well and you know what when they leave good riddance like it’s fine.

09:14.19
Wayne
The pain in the yeah well I don’t want them Anyway, they will go exactly? Yeah, don’t let the door hit you in the ass. So.

09:22.73
Preston
Ah, yeah I and so I’m looking at your website and you have you have basically just 2 plans right.

09:27.58
Wayne
Yeah, and to be honest with you The the big one just makes the small one look right? Nobody buys it.

09:35.63
Preston
Yeah, ah okay I love that price anchoring man if if listeners are paying attention. They are learning so much from where where you’ve come in just a few short years. Um, so be sure to be sure to check out. We’ll be sure to link to your your website resonantpixel dot co and and listeners can check it out but I just think you’ve got a lot of good things going on there for sure. Let’s let’s chat about where you’re headed. Um, so you’ve got this productized service. You’ve got um, you’ve got clients a growing business. Plenty of work to be done. Um, you put that currently on our on our freelancer to founder scale. So if listeners aren’t familiar with it. We have this scale that we have everyone when they fill out the questionnaire you put you know on scale of 1 to 10 one being a freelancer 10 being a founder where would you rate yourself you put that currently you’re at a 4 but you’d like to be more like at an 8 in the next year or so maybe paint a picture for us. What does an 8 look like that’s different from how your business looks right now.

10:36.74
Wayne
I Think an eight to me is a little less hands on when it comes to the actual implement implementation of the process. Um still managing and maintaining the quality but you know I have vision of bringing on someone that is like. Project management and or like virtual assistant type person that can help with some of that and I I don’t feel like I have enough subscriptions to get there yet. You know the the thing about the subscription is like there’s this pit of despair where you have just as many projects and a fraction of the revenue and then you inch your way out of there right.

11:12.19
Preston
Yeah, yeah.

11:14.24
Wayne
So so so the four is I’m doing a lot of the work I have a designer who helps me she works 20 hours a week or so and she’s incredible and doing great work and it seems like we we work well together and a v a that helps me sporadically. He’s talented I feel like I can’t give him enough yet. But I’d like to and then writers here and there and a developer who helps me on the regular. Um, who’s in the Ukraine.

11:44.38
Preston
Cool and so and so a year from now if you were to be at an 8 it would be more um, taking all the all the people you currently have maybe adding a couple more adding like a project manager person who who handles the client intake the the client requests. Um, and then you focus on growing the business is that kind of the picture you’re painting. Yeah cool. Yeah yeah, well I guess let’s dive in then what? what can we help you with ah to get to that point because I think you’re on a good trajectory.

12:02.35
Wayne
Yeah, absolutely like actually spend some of my time on on marketing and growth and and having a growth strategy.

12:19.67
Preston
What are you? What are you seeing as maybe one of the biggest hurdles or the biggest question marks that you have around getting to that point to where you know you’ve you’ve got maybe some more project management stuff in place and you’re really working on growing the business. So.

12:34.77
Wayne
Yeah I I think the system itself is fairly solid. There’s obviously always an opportunity to improve it. Um, but I see now that I’ve had. Just launched the subscriptions in October so they’ve been running for seven months and and there’s ah you know a dozen subscribers so it’s growing I’m adding a few every month which is perfect because I can’t do web 10 websites in a month

12:51.64
Preston
Oh nice.

13:01.52
Clay
So yeah, let’s get MR.

13:05.90
Wayne
Yeah, so it’ll get there So there’s still a few projects here and there to supplement income for the business. But I think the next there’s 0 attrition thus far which is great but that’s not reasonable goal to maintain I would say that. Obviously it’s going to happen in in some cases like we were joking about. Maybe we wanted to. But then I think the next hurdle.

13:28.17
Preston
Yeah, but but it is a very I mean it is a very sticky business model though right? like um, it’s like you said they’re they’re not going to. They’re not going to. Yeah once you once you develop it for them. They just want to like pay to maintain it and not have to think about it.

13:32.17
Wayne
I Think so.

13:33.36
Clay
So websites are sticky.

13:40.51
Wayne
Yeah I think but.

13:42.57
Preston
And until they need to make their next change.

13:42.73
Clay
As long as you’re responsive right? like to me I swear I swear to you like in the web industry if you are a responsive outside outside of launching a site like you’ll keep that client forever.

13:56.45
Wayne
Boom You just nailed it. My question was going to be have you set up systems for customer touch points for these longer term engagements like how do I keep them engaged Do I have unlimited content editions and unlimited pages and all this stuff that sounds really amazing.

14:13.27
Clay
And.

14:14.92
Wayne
But in fact, most businesses don’t need to add much content or pages that frequently. Ah, they do around campaigns if they’re active marketers. But if they’re not then I want to keep them engaged so I launched a newsletter and I’m trying to turn that newsletter into content right for probably just Linkedin. Um, out of the gate here like as organic content goes but have you set up systems for for finding and or aggregating saving any of this content or ideation and then turning it into content.

14:53.16
Preston
Um, okay so so is the question. Ah so this is a marketing question. How do you? How do you develop? ah a process where you can generate client facingcing marketing content on a regular basis is that how I’m understanding.

15:05.91
Wayne
Yeah, like touch points to keep them engaged. Let them know about services. Let them know about changes in the offering or let them know about opportunities or fine like everyone’s asking about Ai.

15:19.19
Clay
Here.

15:20.20
Preston
Yeah.

15:20.93
Wayne
Obviously and other hot topics as as they trend in and out of of you know the social consciousness of our industry like the question revolves around keeping these customers warm. So they feel like even if they go months on end without needing me in the service they they are still getting some value in return.

15:46.29
Preston
Yeah I have some so I have some thoughts but Clay does anything jump out to you before I jump in I’m sure you do.

15:48.23
Clay
Ah.

15:52.39
Clay
I have so I have 6 thoughts specifically 6 thoughts. Ah so I don’t know like do you want me to go first.

16:01.00
Preston
First I don’t know I had like 1 thought. so yeah yeah I’ll go first so so I was just reminded of a service that I subscribe to and um, they I can actually think of 2 companies that I subscribe to that that do this.

16:05.73
Clay
Um, why don’t you go first? ah.

16:18.96
Preston
And they do it really? well. But the one that first came to mind is um, actually a service that helps me with my own subscriptions meaning my own customers who pay me a subscription they help ah with it’s called profit. Well and they have a product called retain and it basically like helps. Um, recover churned payments lost payments um outdated credit cards like when you’re taking subscriptions at a certain scale. Um, anyone who’s ever taken you know more than ah, a dozen or 2 subscriptions in a month there’s just a lot of that going on and it can be a lot of manual labor if you don’t have it set up anyway, all that to say they they do this. Sort of quietly in the background. Ah, but every month they send me an update on their product like here’s what here’s what we’ve updated in your account to capture more revenue or to help you avoid more lost revenue and here’s how much we captured this month and um and it’s just like a nice little reminder and then if there’s ever anything in like subscription payment services that they feel like is relevant to me. They’ll just like ping me real quick and say I thought you might want to take a look at this? Um, and they’re probably sending it out to everyone on their list right? but it feels very personal and it’s like.

17:32.56
Preston
Like hey, um, you know here’s one way to to increase your average lifetime value of a client or whatever. So to me That’s really helpful I Look forward to those emails. On the one hand they’re like validating that it’s worth the fee that I’m paying them because that number that comes back every month is like higher than the fee that I paid them right? So It’s a no-brainer and every month I’m like oh yep, got it? Um, and you know when we all get on those. Like ah purge moments where we go through and like delete a bunch of subscriptions. These guys are never even close to being on that list right? because I know that I’m getting that value from them month after month. Um, and then I just I just get the sense that they’re like watching out for me right? Ah that they’re in my corner they’re on my team and if something. Big were to happen in the industry and I wasn’t paying attention I feel like they would email me about it right? So um, so that to me is really helpful and and I find a lot of value in just like a monthly check-in even even if nothing’s changed in the product or in the service just a quick monthly check-in to know that they’re still in my corner is is really helpful.

18:31.80
Wayne
Yeah, at things fire man I’m looking at it. Yes, please.

18:33.77
Clay
That’s good.

18:37.48
Preston
Yeah, yeah, they did good work.

18:39.79
Clay
Ah, so so Preston touched on one of mine which is the monthly check-in but during while he was talking I added another one so I actually do have 6 put besides the check it.

18:54.15
Wayne
Um.

18:54.20
Clay
I will na let me let me take a note make a note about the check-ins I would highly recommend doing this via text or Facebook Messenger and it’s literally just a ah you could do this a couple ways. But ah, you know, actually oh to I’ll go back a step.

19:02.49
Preston
Ah.

19:13.82
Clay
1 way and when I say monthly check-in I mean like like a friend you’re checking in like a friend. It’s like hey Wayne just checking in how are things going boom that’s it. That’s all you got to say and the fact that that like if you do that. Just by itself if you even if you forget all the other things on my list here if you do that by itself people are going to stay around because now they view you as a friend instead of a business associate right? and people stick with their friends they they don’t leave so. If you do the monthly check-in that’s just a text a simple text or a Facebook message message I think that by itself is super powerful. Um another one I’ll be quite quick with these is to remind them of what they actually get with you right? Preston already touched on this. But. Hey like if you offer unlimited content updates just remind them every I don’t know at least quarter. Um, that hey did you know you get unlimited content updates. The reason why you want to remind people for that specific reason. Um, is because people forget they they don’t. Exactly no remember what they signed up for and so especially in the website design. Um realm is that people have a lot of content updates like in their head that they want to make but they don’t realize that they have un unlimited content updates. So.

20:35.80
Wayne
Yeah.

20:38.10
Preston
From the and they’re like I’ll do that one day.

20:40.52
Wayne
Yeah.

20:42.47
Clay
Yeah, and so what they do is they sandbag it. They sandbag it because what could be happening very well real scenario is that they sandbag these things because they don’t know how much it’s going to cost. They know it’s going to cost something. Yes.

20:47.26
Preston
Ah.

20:55.70
Wayne
Yeah, it’s like industry baggage. They’re so used to not bothering because they don’t want to deal with getting charged and the oh the anxiety of what is going to cost me based on whatever the fee is monthly like the hourly fee.

21:02.52
Preston
Aha.

21:02.52
Clay
Yeah, asked yup remove the anxiety and just remind them that they get this this this and this right? So that’s that’s number 2 number 3 um cele yeah, go for it.

21:10.68
Wayne
Love that.

21:13.43
Preston
Wait can I say something on that real quick. So I think too when you’re sending updates of reminding them what they get. You could also remind them of like what you’ve done like I don’t know I don’t know what the equivalent of this is in squarespace because I haven’t worked in squarespace much and I know I’m going to say the W word here but in wordpress like if you.

21:31.16
Wayne
That’s not good.

21:33.18
Preston
If you were working on wordpress right? It could be like we noticed your such and such plugin was outdated so we went ahead and updated that for you stuff like that. Just like little things that took you 2 minutes or took your team 2 minutes you you sort of lump those into a monthly email and they’re like oh man, thank you Wayne I didn’t even realize that was outdated and that it up right? so.

21:38.78
Clay
Yeah, yeah.

21:50.83
Preston
You can just sort of remind them of your value as you go on sorry clay keep going oops.

21:53.81
Clay
Yeah, no, you’re good that I was actually point number three was my pro proactiveness. Ah so like you know in this industry I Hate to say it. But this is the way it is is that people usually respond to certain things in more of a.

21:58.70
Wayne
Um, yeah.

22:11.83
Wayne
Right.

22:12.12
Clay
Reactive way right? So hey my site’s down um, can you fix it? sure. Yeah I fixed it and you could be hyper responsive with with that right? Maybe you get the site back up in like 5 minutes or whatever but there’s a big difference between that versus saying hey we noticed that your site went down for a couple minutes. Guess guess what we took care of it just letting you know that. Everything’s good in case, any of your clients or customers notice it big difference between those 2 right um.

22:34.92
Preston
That’s so powerful man.

22:38.65
Wayne
yeah yeah yeah I do some of that with arefs ah, where you know it’s sort of like my to do list for the first few months but even then you start cleaning a site up so much to the point where there isn’t a lot left to do so.

22:48.37
Clay
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that’s well I got four more I got 4 more all right? So the the fourth one is milestones so whatever milestones that you have with your clients and you can.

22:53.70
Wayne
That’s why I like these other touch points that you’ve mentioned thus far. So this role let’s roll.

23:07.98
Clay
You can come up with some celebrate them so has the client been around like like hey congratulations you’ve been with a client for with me for six months or a year or whatever or even better if you pay attention to your clients and what’s happening with them and you can just stock them on social media like once a month or whatever. If they like let’s just say their business hit a milestone like celebrate with them all you have to do is just send them a message or a video or something say hey I saw you guys achieved this congratulations just wanted to say that that’s amazing. Boom done.

23:45.90
Preston
Yeah I wonder like in this particular industry if you could set up like some automated alerts for your team because I think what would be really cool is if you had someone who was just like almost their whole job was just this like customer satisfaction touch point thing because.

23:45.22
Clay
So celebrate milestones.

23:51.60
Clay
Yeah.

24:01.66
Preston
Imagine like if you had ah alert setup to where like if you can get access to their traffic. You can see like oh you guys had a big spike day or you had your biggest traffic month this year or or whatever like that would just give you so much fodder to then say you guys we noticed that you had a huge month congrats on the traffic this month

24:08.75
Clay
No.

24:19.14
Preston
Right? And that’s and that would go so far in like just deepening that relationship and.

24:21.45
Wayne
Yeah, that’s awesome and I see all so.

24:21.64
Clay
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s really good all right? So number 5 gifting. So I’ve mentioned this on previous podcast episodes but like gifting strategically I should say.

24:27.53
Preston
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:41.27
Clay
So when a client first onboards with you give them a gift of some sort right? I’m not talking about digital gift. It could be a digital gift but there’s just something that says like something physical that goes a long way. It’s unexpected but also. It could be during during milestones it could be like at their birthday. Don’t do ah don’t do like a ah boring ass birthday card right um or write on their Facebook wall like that’s just everybody does that send them something really cool. Um, here’s.

25:13.78
Preston
And clay. No one’s called it at a Facebook wall since like 2007 men

25:19.66
Clay
It still exists so does poking right? Ah I’ll just say it still technically exists. Ah right? Um, here’s here’s here’s an an important.

25:24.81
Preston
Ah, right? Yes, exactly. But.

25:27.28
Wayne
Maybe I’ll like what they’re listening to on pain.

25:37.32
Clay
Part on gifting is that once you do have some churn because it’ll happen eventually just like what you said like when somebody quits and like over time over time say like 5 years from now 3 years from now. Whatever I would find out when people are quitting or or when they’re dropped like moving to another person. Right? Another professional when they leave you one I would find out why but 2 when that’s super important because if it’s if it’s on average. They’re leaving you after a 2 year Mark I would probably around the 8 the eighteen twenty month maybe twenty two month mark

25:59.80
Wayne
I.

26:16.45
Clay
Figure out something how to set like to give them like send them a gift of some sort. Yeah.

26:18.11
Preston
Yeah, or even like an upgrade right? like maybe they’re leaving because after 2 years their site feels outdated so they start hunting again for another web designer and it’s like whoa if you sent them something eighteen months in and said.

26:20.98
Wayne
Um, yeah I like that.

26:32.69
Preston
Hey there’s a few things that you know according to web standards and Google recommendations yada yada these things should be updated. Let us know if you want us to get to working on these. We want your web website to be as updated as possible.

26:39.17
Clay
Yeah, yeah, every couple years I Personally I think you should hit up all your clients and say hey you want to do a read design like it’s time you know.

26:52.10
Wayne
Yeah I think I’ve I’ve committed to one I don’t remember now if top man head if it’s sixteen months or 18 months but like you know a design exercise to refresh the site. Um, nobody’s quite there yet. So I think I’ve got a couple months they’ll have to reread that. But.

27:02.11
Clay
Yep. Yeah, you’re you go? Aley yeah.

27:09.25
Wayne
But I think that ah it it It was something I was thinking about like you know the way the subscriptions work. You know there’s no big project fee. They’re paying month over month. So they don’t have to write a big check. But over time I earn a lot more in revenue and have to you know sell them a lot less.

27:24.30
Clay
And I think.

27:28.44
Wayne
Ah, but now this exercise is how do I How do I keep them warm and continue to illustrate the value.

27:34.49
Clay
Yeah that’s you know we did that with my agency we we did our websites on a subscription basis right? So like they would chart we they would be paying like two hundred and fifty dollars a month. Um, and at the 2 wo-year Mark we would be like hey do you want to do a redesign and then they will ask well. How much does it cost I’m like doesn’t cost you any more than what you’re paying now right? You just keep paying the two hundred and fifty dollars and so that’s what’s the beauty of the subscription is is. It’s ah it doesn’t cost them any more than what they’re what they’re paying and it’ll cost you a little bit more time at the 2 year Mark but you know.

27:57.99
Wayne
Um, yeah.

28:10.82
Clay
It’s worth it to to increase the retention of sustainability and client lifecycle client lifetime value right? um.

28:17.27
Wayne
Um, yeah.

28:18.57
Preston
Yeah, you’re kind of so you’re kind of stealing the business model from like phone companies right? You think about? ah it’s like I get a free phone every two years if I pay for service month over month over month and um and it’s like such a pain to switch. We just had to switch.

28:23.13
Clay
Um, oh yeah, yep.

28:35.76
Wayne
And.

28:36.24
Preston
Was such a pain and and so yeah, the stickier you can make that by making it super convenient to stay with you as opposed to go with someone else I don’t know I think there’s a lot of power in that. Yeah yeah, and they work it into their monthly price right? like obviously they’re not just giving away free phones.

28:42.20
Clay
Ah.

28:45.70
Clay
Um, yeah, yeah, alright so the yeah.

28:45.95
Wayne
Right? Yeah and thought about the flow come company but that’s ah, that’s accurate. So.

28:56.17
Preston
It just works in their business model because they know if I get if I get a phone on their network I’m going to stick around for probably about 2 years and then I’m going to need a new phone so then they give me another free one and then I’m stuck in front of the 2 years you know and.

29:08.10
Wayne
Mail.

29:08.98
Clay
Yeah, let’s say yeah, such a good point. Good example, um all right last 2 real quick. Um you real question you do marketing right? Do you do marketing stuff as a service or you just web.

29:22.13
Wayne
Not as a service officially but I do wind up doing a ton of marketing stuff. Yeah.

29:28.27
Clay
Okay, all right? So this will apply to you? Um, and you already kind of mentioned this a little bit but just sharing different tactics that people can do like little tiny tactics like marketing tactics that they can them they can implement and execute themselves right? So it’s. It’ll be just like hey guys. Um, just want to share this here’s the weekly tactic. That’s it. What’s really cool is if you do this on a weekly basis and say hey here’s ah Thursday third and Tuesday tactics right? like taco tuesday is they will start expecting it every single tuesday.

30:03.84
Clay
It’s something that they look forward to. It’s kind of like a tv show that you cannot binge that you have to watch you have to wait until the next week yeah um the last thing I have on my list here is.

30:10.40
Wayne
Got it? yeah.

30:18.40
Clay
Ah, are are your clients local or are they mostly remote.

30:21.75
Wayne
Mostly remote. There are a few local ones but and and it’s built up a bit of a local strategy but it’s it’s still in its youth.

30:25.48
Clay
Okay.

30:32.29
Clay
Okay, so since you do have some local ones. Um I mean I guess you can offer this to remote clients but it’s just more difficult because to travel but do an annual client appreciation event that’s in-per yeah like we we did this for agency and.

30:42.44
Preston
So man I Love that. That’s so fun catering some food.

30:49.26
Clay
Yeah, food prizes like just make it fun. Don’t don’t make it about business. You know what I means it’s we did this for with my agency and it was we we would have like 200 people there is crazy. Yeah, we were mostly local, mostly local but you could do this for even if you only have like.

31:00.30
Wayne
Um, wow.

31:09.26
Clay
5 local clients. Do it and document it and then send all that those photos and videos to out to your remote clients and be like hey look what we just did.

31:18.35
Wayne
Right.

31:20.54
Preston
Yeah, you could maybe even have a remote element right? Like we did our 5 day challenge. Ah, which is not the same thing but we were able to remotely still do like little prizes and um and you can I mean you could still pull some of that off remotely. You can have like people join over Zoom or whatever.

31:28.20
Clay
Yeah, yeah.

31:36.36
Preston
Um, if they wanted to but I think too like my so I have some friends who are realtors and they do like um, free free night at the local baseball team courtesy of you know whoever a realty because and then and then it’s like literally anyone can come like you don’t even have to be a client right? because it just.

31:50.58
Clay
Yeah.

31:55.10
Preston
Just a lot of Goodwill um, you let your clients invite whoever they want to invite because then those people could potentially become clients. It just becomes like this really cool opportunity to sort of spread the word that you guys are fun and cool and good to work with and nice to your clients and just gets your name out there. Okay.

32:00.43
Clay
Murder.

32:08.71
Wayne
Machine good.

32:10.59
Clay
Yeah that’s actually I like that you mentioned the the 5 day challenge I think you could actually do this wayne you come up with maybe ah, every quarter or hell you can do it every month if you if you have enough traction. But. You could do a free challenge like a free 3 day challenge or 5 day challenge. It could be just things on marketing or whatever it could be it could be for example um you know you could do a challenge where it’s like a 5 ah free 5 day challenge for to create. An email marketing drip. You know something like that or we did one. We did one where it was ah we actually did a 30 day challenge um but it was it was a thirty days in a row like post a video like 1 video a day for for thirty days and me myself I only checked in like we checked in as a group like 3 times but as far as doing thirty days of videos like that was on their own but it was it was more of like a group like you know accountability kind of thing so it was just a benefit for for current clients to to. Ah. Participate.

33:23.00
Preston
You know another test point this is reminding me of is like Clay um has a Facebook group with a bunch of clients in it and and offers a lot of value through the Facebook group on a regular basis so that could be a good place to do that as well. Where like you’re taking some of this stuff that maybe we’ve talked about sending out via email.

33:31.32
Clay
Are.

33:39.10
Preston
And you’re you’re putting that in your Facebook group or you’re doing like Facebook specific little challenges or updates or anything like that that could be really and then and then what’s cool is like he’s built this community now where yes he adds value. But then each member of the community also adds value to the other members and so.

33:43.99
Clay
So yeah.

33:56.37
Preston
Sort of exponentially gets more valuable because you’re now like connecting clients with other clients. Maybe they’re partnering together doing business together like there’s a lot of opportunity for networking and kind of and then they attribute all that networking and growth and and value back to clay um saying like yeah I met him in Clay’s you know.

34:03.90
Clay
Um, yeah.

34:13.83
Clay
First.

34:15.81
Preston
Facebook group or whatever. It’s a really cool way to connect a bunch of people and and get again Goodwill and and um attention to your business and your brand. Okay.

34:24.26
Clay
Ah.

34:24.77
Wayne
Yeah I mean you’re leading into my next question we’re like so on the same page um connecting customers as a community like you just mentioned the Facebook group I use slack a lot like I’m not sure.

34:26.62
Preston
I was great I was about to ask? Yeah, what is it.

34:41.66
Wayne
Ah, very many service-based businesses that have done that. In fact, they probably would be mostly fearful traditionally of doing something like that. But I’ve always thought that there was merit in the idea but not really sure how to approach it and and how to discuss the. Value proposition of it all yeah like connecting customers together like in a group like the Facebook group or in a slack channel like can they they all work in different industries. Can they also help each other and then does that narrow the you know touch points for me and then.

35:00.69
Clay
You talking about connecting people together.

35:06.98
Preston
Ah, yeah, yeah.

35:18.59
Wayne
Connect them and create a sense of community in the interaction with my business.

35:23.78
Clay
So what’s what’s the actual question.

35:27.31
Wayne
Have you ever connected customers into a community.

35:27.77
Preston
So it sounds like you got to figure it out.

35:33.58
Clay
Yeah, ah Preston Do you have anything to say hello.

35:37.80
Preston
Um, so we so we tried a Facebook group with um with our so our subscription service called solid gigs. Um, it wasn’t it wasn’t the best only because. We probably didn’t do it justice like we we probably weren’t in there enough and active enough. Ah it like it takes it takes more work than we’re making it sound right? We’re like yeah, just join them all together and they’ll all be friends and they’ll help each other and that’s my bad to say it that way because it does take a lot of like.

35:56.55
Wayne
Ah.

36:09.31
Preston
You posting questions you sort of encouraging engagement people aren’t going to engage on their own a lot of times. Um, so so I think there is a fair amount of work to still make that happen. But I think there I think there’s still value in it for your business. Um I just think it it should be like 1 of many.

36:24.74
Clay
A.

36:26.76
Preston
Touch points and so it’s like maybe maybe on Tuesdays I send an email or a text and on Thursdays I post something to the Facebook group and you know, ah and maybe that takes off and so I put more attention into the Facebook group and maybe it doesn’t do as well. So I put more attention into text or email. Um. I think the real you do have to you know your question you said how do I talk about it. What’s you know What’s the angle or whatever and and I think you do have to figure that out like like why would clients care to be in a group with other clients. It could start with stuff that you could add value like join this group and every Tuesday and Thursday I’ll post something helpful to help your website get more traffic.

36:53.16
Wayne
Right.

37:02.75
Preston
Um, or or yeah, so yeah, you do have to think through that’s right? yeah.

37:05.94
Clay
It’s got to be. It’s got to have a purpose. It’s got to have a it’s going to have a purpose outside of outside of Wayne’s clients right? I mean I I actually I run in this all the time because ah like for example I was talking to ah a chiropractor the other day who’s a client of mine and I said.

37:10.55
Wayne
Never hate right.

37:22.55
Clay
Ah, said, dude you need to get like a Facebook group. That’s that’s for like your clients and so what he did is um, he created he created ah a Facebook group called and I’m not going to say the name but I’ll just make up a name but like Bob’s chiropractic VIP like and I’m just I don’t know there’s like no purpose behind it and I said well what’s the purpose. He’s like get all my clients in the same place and nurture them I was like okay, but why are they joining because there needs to be a purpose outside outside of that and so for context, this person is a personal trainer also a certified nutritionist and I was like.

37:47.50
Wayne
I have right.

37:48.66
Preston
Ah, yeah.

38:01.90
Clay
Dude the group needs to be all about that like provide personal training tips Plans Fitness plans nutrition Recipes nutrition plans like that’s the purpose and it just happens to be all your clients in there right? So you need to find.

38:04.11
Preston
Yeah.

38:05.63
Wayne
Um, right.

38:18.44
Wayne
Um, yeah.

38:20.60
Clay
Some sort of like 1 purpose for for people to join the group and and then just invite all your clients.

38:27.81
Preston
Yeah, because I will say we have had success with what we call our global freelance mastermind and it’s it’s on. It’s a Facebook group as well and it’s the complete opposite of this other one that I was talking about that was kind of a big flop this one’s been. Really successful in terms of engagement. We’ve got like almost thirteen twelve thousand people in the group I think we’re constantly sort of like purging the list to make it as high quality as possible. Um, and and the real value prop is like come join this group and there’s 11000 other freelancers who. Who are building their businesses if you have questions there’s someone in that group who’s a couple steps ahead of you or 10 years ahead of you who can answer the question. Um, you know Clay and Preston hang out in the group and but but really, there’s like thousands and thousands of other people to sort of um bounce your ideas off of ask questions. So like it. It really is just about figuring out what the value prop is of the group coming up with a unique angle just asking yourself like why would I join this as a client.

39:28.35
Wayne
Yeah, well sure as hell wouldn’t name it V I p where the only value is exclusivity.

39:29.51
Clay
What you know you know like yeah yeah, all this like these are these are um. Like we came up with I just I was just listing them out here like there’s just like 10 different things here. Um, but what you’re really trying to do just all encompassing. You can do any or all of these things. But what you’re really trying to do is. From ah from a psychological perspective from your like your clients is even if they start to think that they want to leave you. You want them to feel so guilty about it that they don’t you know does that make sense.

40:09.84
Wayne
Okay, yeah, it makes perfect sense.

40:16.36
Clay
Like if I were your client and I was and so you know maybe Joe Schmo website design down the road offered me a website for a fraction of the cost right? because that’s a big reason why people leave they switch because it’s cheaper. Um, but then I think to myself. Man Wayne’s giving me so I have I get so much value like he’s giving me gifts. He reminds me all these tactics and stuff and like I’m part of this Facebook group that I get tons of value from and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah I’m not I I would feel so guilty like I don’t think I’m going to leave.

40:52.67
Preston
And guilt and but then also like fear of loss of value too right? It’s like am I going to get all this awesome stuff that I get with Wayne if I hire someone else.

40:53.58
Wayne
Um, yeah.

40:53.66
Clay
Because there’s just so much value. There. Yeah and if they get on the level of they think of you as a friend now which is what you really want to achieve versus oh he’s my website designer. He’s my web guy Nah Wayne’s a friend now I’m not going to leave him. He’s my friend.

41:16.16
Wayne
Um, yeah, yeah, website engagements are usually they’re so sticky I don’t think we give that aspect of our industry enough credit. Um, most people most people seek out new designers indoor developers because they’re old 1 Just.

41:24.71
Preston
Yeah, for sure.

41:32.12
Wayne
Is in Communiicado like entirely disappeared. So so just by being available and showing up and doing work right away already super sticky. Ah, but you know my I’m thinking long term like then press and you are reluctant to give me more to do.

41:34.00
Clay
Yep, oh 100% yep

41:43.27
Clay
Um, yeah.

41:50.56
Wayne
I was like why stop now look at this list of ideas I’ve got for content thoughts. but but I think the next fear or anxiety is driven by continued perception of value. Ah you know Fomo.

41:54.40
Clay
Um.

42:07.58
Wayne
And what you said full Love whatever the fear of loss of value. But but but I think I think these ideas have been fantastic and I think that it helps me create a framework for for generating something that.

42:08.31
Preston
Ah.

42:26.75
Wayne
Is valuable to them to receive even if it’s not always for them specifically when they need it and staying top of mind. That’s that’s the whole game long term for sales right? so.

42:29.31
Preston
Yeah.

42:39.97
Preston
Yeah yep, and and I think this could be a position. You could really easily hire out that would be that the ah roi on it would be well worth your investment in in hiring someone who’s good at this who just like they sort of build a community and they they’re they’re like a.

42:50.21
Clay
Um, if.

42:56.61
Preston
Just a super helpful, very present proactive person. Um, they check for certain things. But I think also some of this could be automated like if you like there’s a lot of it that you want to make it real time and personal. But there’s some of it. You know because it’s it’s kind of all just like ah a conglomeration of. Lots of little touch points right? and I think some of these touch points like a weekly text. Um, you know that could potentially be automated or or it could be like every other week is automated or something to where once a client signs up, they they go into this flow and and if there’s some timeless advice. That’s not like you know Google just updated their algorithm here’s a few things we should change on your website if it’s like timeless stuff then that could go into some sort of drip sequence where you know your your brand new clients are receiving something that you wrote two years ago um

43:48.50
Preston
And it’s kind of all automated and then you so and then you still have that really talented person who’s there to respond to questions or add extra insights or constantly be updating those as needed but but I just think some of that could be automated and you just need to work out like what what portion of this process is automation.

44:03.28
Clay
Are.

44:05.17
Preston
And what portion of this process is is a really talented team member or yourself or whoever you decide needs to handle the human side of it.

44:11.32
Wayne
Yeah, that’s a good way to think about it and sometimes we don’t even realize the capacity that some of the tools we already use have and and and how to leverage them creatively like you said that and I was just like oh I could totally do that with an app that I have right now.

44:12.78
Clay
Are.

44:17.73
Preston
Yeah.

44:26.86
Preston
Yeah, yeah, 100%

44:28.67
Wayne
So um.

44:29.20
Clay
Ah, just make sure it doesn’t just make sure to make it not look automated as much as possible. You know, like like for example, the monthly text check in you don’t want us.

44:33.42
Wayne
Yeah, that would be key make sure that if that’s the same every month has a bad look. Yeah.

44:41.61
Clay
You want to say that? yeah you don’t want to say the exact same phrase every month because after a couple months they’re gonna be a oh bro. This is like it’s not actually you you know.

44:41.87
Preston
Yeah yep for sure. Yeah, no, but I’m I’m talking I’m talking more like like let’s say you’re gonna send a weekly text right? clay you’ve done this and then and you you like batch.

44:48.82
Wayne
No.

44:59.19
Preston
Batch type brainstorm type and plan like you know 20 texts in an in an afternoon instead of instead of like every Thursday I have to come up with something and then I have to send it out and load it into my text software and do it like no, do it all like in an hour or two one afternoon for the next six months

45:03.96
Clay
No yeah, yeah.

45:14.34
Clay
Understood.

45:17.92
Preston
You know and then and then it’s automated yet well thought out personal relevant etc.

45:23.65
Wayne
Yeah, that can be not just batch created but batch scheduled as well. Even even with sms that that can be done I like that That’s awesome man, you’ve given me a lot of work to do it.

45:24.24
Clay
Ah.

45:27.73
Preston
Exactly Yeah, exactly? Yeah yep, absolutely.

45:31.68
Clay
And.

45:37.73
Preston
Well, that’s what we like to do we like to really Bog you down with more work to do when you are you feel overwhelmed.

45:38.36
Clay
This this this lift.

45:42.89
Wayne
I Love that Yeah I wasn’t already stressed enough. Yeah I I have a trello board where I just like I as as I see web pages or I’m you know in a chat in a slack group or a circle group or something and I just like grab some ticks and it’ll link back to the page so you just like create a card on the fly Boom Boom boom.

45:43.18
Clay
Ah, yeah, ah.

46:01.60
Wayne
And I pile all those things up in there and then when I sit down to write my monthly email newsletter I’m like I don’t remember why I put that in there I don’t know why this is significant delete Delete delete and then I wind up writing something to go in there but ah.

46:01.89
Preston
Baco.

46:11.38
Clay
Assist it.

46:18.54
Wayne
I Think there’s that’s an area of opportunity to improve the the process and maybe maybe I don’t time block or something to do more frequently right.

46:24.67
Clay
Um, have you is your monthly newsletter. So that’s about like you know is that how often you email your your clients.

46:31.63
Wayne
Yeah clients and anyone who signs up on the website. So there’s a few there’s There’s a few strangers in there that I don’t know Personally, there’s some friends and family. There’s obviously clients and contacts that I stuck in there because I know they like me and they’re not going to care.

46:38.62
Clay
This.

46:46.34
Clay
Yeah I would change it to weekly like a week oh I would do a weekly roundup like hey here’s what went on this week it’ll be it should be shorter but it’s more frequent.

46:52.60
Wayne
Weekly.

47:03.85
Preston
Yeah Tim Ferriss does his 5 bullet Friday and it’s just like 5 things that he found interesting in 5 categories over the course of the week you could do something like that I think though like I know I know this is hard because like you know you’re in your questionnaire and earlier in your interview you were like I’m just um.

47:04.50
Clay
Yeah.

47:10.92
Clay
Be here.

47:21.51
Preston
I’ve got so much to do right? and so working working in the business versus working on the business I think um and I hate to always come back to this but it seems like 90% of the problems we hear about on this show can be solved by um, sort of having the courage to to make your next hire and it feels to me like.

47:23.60
Wayne
Um, yeah.

47:36.82
Wayne
Right.

47:40.59
Preston
You could either make another hire even if it’s like a contractor to help with more of the client requests so that you could put more time in on the stuff we’ve talked about today or you could hire someone who really is passionate about building community building client trust um, creating content, etc, etc and bring them in. Um, again, it could even just be on a part-time contract basis to begin if that makes more sense financially for your business. But I think bringing in someone on either 1 of those because what what I’m afraid is going to happen is like yes we all have great intentions. Um, but you know we’re saying like oh send an email every week instead of every month which I agree with. And we’re saying oh and start a Facebook group. Oh and ah, start texting your clients. Oh and ah, you know, etc, etc, etc. And and you’re going I’m barely getting the work done and having time to even think strategically about the business. So for me like the the next step is. You got to you got to get someone to help you out with it and and yes software can do part of that. But I really think you need someone who again either is passionate about this piece that we’ve talked about today or who can offload any of the production work that you might be doing or any of the like client liaison work client communication work like the the project-based stuff.

48:53.15
Wayne
Um, and.

48:53.30
Preston
Um, it sounds like you just probably need someone in order to take this next step. You’ll probably need a little bit more manpower.

49:01.69
Wayne
Yeah I was ready to end this call. You give me 1 more thing to do but I like this idea like I was like dude now we I like that idea I think you’re you’re you’re leading me into ah back into leaning into the v a that I mentioned earlier.

49:06.91
Clay
Um, and.

49:15.61
Preston
Oh yeah, there you go.

49:17.43
Wayne
Ah, who’s ah, who’s a good guy and um I’m looking to give him more to do and I think maybe I’m hoarding some of my tasks and I could probably do a better job of of bringing him closer to the business. Um a near.

49:26.89
Preston
Um, yeah.

49:29.97
Preston
Yeah, this would be great stuff for for a Va some of it to to or some of the project management stuff depending on how highly feel about his abilities. So yeah, love that.

49:35.62
Clay
Water.

49:40.80
Wayne
Yeah, ah, yeah, and you know I could do a better job of saying no to some things I’m really terrible at it I think that I don’t free up enough of my time because I’m not good at saying no like hey help me with this email signature or help me with these business cards of this Thank you card for all my clients and I’m like sure that won’t take long and the next thing I know’s like it’s a week later and I spent an hour on it and I didn’t need to and could have just gone to canva well said, no no, no.

50:00.51
Clay
This first place.

50:04.98
Preston
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I mean yeah yeah I Love the idea of like.

50:10.73
Clay
Now.

50:14.90
Wayne
That’s not what my business does read the web page which I’m absolute shit at.

50:18.39
Clay
Um, was this.

50:21.45
Preston
Like saying ah here’s here’s canva here’s some tools I recommend like there’s another wrong with that and just saying like we don’t We don’t really do this kind of thing. But here’s some tools I’d recommend people will still people can appreciate that you know so.

50:31.73
Wayne
Yeah, yeah, I’m terrible at saying no, it’s one of my bigger problems but I’ll work on that one. Yeah.

50:32.67
Clay
Um.

50:36.62
Preston
Yeah I think that’s that 1 more thing to work on.

50:38.73
Clay
If You want to think if you want to if you want to think about it this way from ah from a brain level right? like our human brains can only can only take up that we only have so much capacity for what we like what we can. What we think about right. Um, and so the more times you say? Yes, it just takes up capacity in your brain and you you start losing focus and so if you clear if you if your brain is clear your mind’s clear then and you take on less stuff. But you’re also doing.

51:03.90
Wayne
Right.

51:15.21
Clay
The same things over and over again like process from process perspective then your capacity inside your head is freed up much much more if you want to think about it that way.

51:23.88
Wayne
Yeah, like that like that framing also maybe another v a that just sits behind me and pinches me when I say yes is something I shouldn’t be just prods me with a yeah, they have to slap it but like a swear jar swear John.

51:31.92
Preston
There you go just like a rubber a rubber band on your wrists when you say yes to something just flick it. Yeah, that’s yeah, you guys will be going to Disneyland in no time you know put a dollar in the jar every time you say yes to some you shouldn’t.

51:33.67
Clay
Was Sir servant.

51:40.28
Clay
The favor.

51:43.93
Wayne
Ah, yes, jar I have yeah just my yes jar that that paid for that paid for Mickey Mouse on

51:49.63
Clay
Setor this.

51:54.65
Preston
Ah, good man. Well it’s been fun chatting with you today Wayne why don’t you? Um, let everyone know where once again where they can find you how they can connect with you in case, they want to um, hire you connect with you learn more from you anything like that.

52:07.44
Wayne
Yeah, I’m always happy to connect and ah thank you both for all the fantastic input really really valuable stuff I’ve made a ton of notes and I plan to put this stuff into action immediately. Um, anyone can reach out to me on Linkedin I’m really good at accepting friend requests as long as you’re not too spammy.

52:15.75
Preston
I Love him in.

52:25.49
Wayne
Ah, and resonantpixeldot co I’m on Twitter but I don’t really use it much. It’s just depressing.

52:32.33
Clay
This Earth name.

52:34.30
Preston
Very nice all right? Well Wayne thank you so much for taking time to to jump on a call today man I’m I’m glad you have a bunch of stuff to work on. We’d love to check back in here in another half of a year or so and just see how you’re doing okay, perfect.

52:44.70
Wayne
Um, I’ll ping you appreciate you. Thanks.

52:47.80
Clay
Well thanks I.

52:50.51
Preston
Clay from gettrify.com and I’ve been Preston Lee with millodot co thank you guys take care.

52:53.34
Clay
See ya.

52:56.86
Wayne
Bye.